Mütek Mpp Nem 90 nakup rabljenega (11.845)

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Basic dimensions: Width: approx. 3,180 mm Height: approx. 900 mm Depth: approx. 600 mm Technical data for the workbench frame: Manufacturer: Dexion Bdjdpfx Aoth N Shsgtsb Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 02x workbench uprights, used Material colour: green Upright height: 900 mm Upright depth: 600 mm Incl. cross and diagonal braces, foot plates The uprights are pre-assembled (bolted framework) 04x workbench beams, used Material colour: orange Beam profile: I: 120 x 50 mm Clear span: 3,000 mm 08x safety pins, used Specification: sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams against unintentional lifting Note: - The images are for illustrative purposes only. - Material colours may deviate. - The workbench frames are picked unassembled; - The uprights are pre-assembled; - Standard production time is approx. 3-5 working days. You can also purchase workbench frames in the following alternative depths: Workbench frame 3,180 x 700 mm / 2 levels / (€184.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 800 mm / 2 levels / (€186.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 900 mm / 2 levels / (€188.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,000 mm / 2 levels / (€190.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,050 mm / 2 levels / (€192.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,100 mm / 2 levels / (€194.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,200 mm / 2 levels / (€198.00 incl. 19% VAT) Your contacts at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only available for collection. If transport or shipping is required, additional costs will apply, which can be quoted separately depending on delivery location and volume. Please contact us for further information.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical specifications for the pallet racking system: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Technical data for installation: Number of rack rows: 01 unit Length per rack row: 15,540 mm Number of bays per rack row: 05 units Number of levels plus ground level: 02 units Volume specifications: Pallet spaces per bay: 09 units Pallet spaces per rack row: 45 units Total pallet spaces: 45 units Based on: Load carrier: Euro pallet EN 13698-1 Dimensions: 1,200 x 800 x 150 mm Total height incl. pallet: n/a Max. weight per pallet: 600 kg Scope of delivery includes: 06x pallet rack frames, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Type: H Profile dimensions: 90 x 75 x 2.25 mm Incl. horizontal and diagonal braces, base plates The frames are pre-assembled (bolted truss design) 2,500 mm high 1,100 mm deep 20x pallet racking beams, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized I-profile: 120 x 50 mm Beam type: SLI120/14 Hook: 5 HK Clear width: 3,000 mm 40x locking pins, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams against accidental lifting 24x wedge anchors, new Manufacturer: Hilti Model designation: HST2 M12x105/10 Version: Carbon steel, galvanized Approved for: cracked concrete 12x leveling plates, used Version: completely galvanized For leveling rack frames installed on uneven floors 01x load capacity sign With specifications for bay and shelf loads, manufacturer, and order number Dimensions: 297 x 210 x 2 mm Bdedpfx Agjruqfaeteb Your contact persons in our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only offered for collection. If shipping or delivery is required, additional costs will apply, which can be inquired about separately depending on the delivery location and scope.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical specifications for the steel beam: Manufacturer: Dexion Model: P90 Included in the scope of delivery: 01x steel beam, used Material color: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: approx. 147 x 50 mm Clear span: approx. 4,060 mm End plate dimensions: approx. 192 x 50 mm Weight per piece: 33.34 kg Your points of contact at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Bedpfsw Eh Tiox Agtjdb Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only available for collection. If transport or shipping of this item is required, additional costs will apply. These costs can be provided upon request, depending on the delivery location and the scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for pallet racking beam: Racking system: Dexion Type: P90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x Pallet racking beam, used Material colour: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 110 x 50 mm Beam type: SLB 110|15 Connector: 5 hooks Clear span: 2,900 mm Max. load per pair of beams: 2,700 kg with evenly distributed load Bdodpfxjtpf Ige Agteb 02x Safety pins, used Material colour: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the beams against unintentional lifting Currently available from stock: 1,560 pcs. Your contacts in our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only offered for collection. Transportation or shipping of this item beyond self-collection will incur additional costs, which can be requested from us depending on the delivery location and scope.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical Data for the Pallet Racking System: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Technical Data for the Installation: Number of rack rows: 01 unit Length per rack row: 28,000 mm Number of bays per rack row: 09 units Number of levels incl. ground level: 04 units Scope of delivery includes: 10x pallet rack frames, used Material color: Sendzimir galvanized Type: 100|25 Profile dimensions: 100 x 100 x 2.5 mm Incl. horizontal and diagonal braces, base plates The frames are pre-assembled (bolted truss construction) 6,000 mm high 1,100 mm deep 72x pallet rack beams, used Material color: orange I-profile: 120 x 50 mm Beam type: SLI 120 |14 S 350 Connector: 5 HK Clear span: 3,000 mm Max. load per pair of beams: 1,800 kg with evenly distributed load. Bsdpfx Ajwi N Najgtedb 144x safety pins, used Material color: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the cross beams against unintentional lifting 40x wedge anchors, new Manufacturer: Hilti Model: HST2 M12x105/10 Design: carbon steel, galvanized Approved for: cracked concrete 20x leveling shims, used Design: fully galvanized For leveling rack frames installed on uneven floors 01x load sign With information about bay and shelf loads, manufacturer and commission number Dimensions: 420 x 297 x 3 mm Your contacts in our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is offered for collection only. Transport or shipping of this item beyond pick-up can be arranged at additional cost, which can be quoted separately depending on the place of delivery and/or scope of supply.

Stanje: rabljeno, Basic dimensions: Width: approx. 3,200 mm Height: approx. 938 mm Depth: approx. 600 mm Technical data for the workbench: Manufacturer: Dexion Model: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 02x workbench uprights, used Material colour: green Upright height: 900 mm Upright depth: 600 mm Incl. cross and diagonal braces, base plates Uprights are pre-assembled (bolted truss construction) 04x workbench beams, used Material colour: orange Beam profile: I: 120 x 50 mm Clear span: 3,000 mm 08x safety pins, used Specification: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams against accidental lifting 01x particle board, 2nd choice, used Board thickness: 38 mm Board width: 3,200 mm Board depth: 600 mm Surface: coated if applicable (if necessary, two-piece) 01x particle board, 2nd choice, used Board thickness: 38 mm Board width: 2,980 mm Board depth: 600 mm Surface: coated if applicable (if necessary, two-piece) 06x self-drilling screws, new Specification: galvanized Dimensions: 6.3 x 70 mm 08x Z-brackets, used For locking/inserting particle boards Surface galvanized Note: - Images are for material illustration purposes only. - Material colour may vary. - Workbench frames are shipped unassembled; - Workbench uprights are pre-assembled; - Usual production time is approx. 3-5 working days. You can also purchase the workbenches from us in the following additional depths: Workbench 3,200 x 700 mm / 2 levels / (€271.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 800 mm / 2 levels / (€282.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 900 mm / 2 levels / (€293.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 1,000 mm / 2 levels / (€304.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 1,050 mm / 2 levels / (€309.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 1,100 mm / 2 levels / (€315.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench 3,200 x 1,200 mm / 2 levels / (€325.00 incl. 19% VAT) Your contacts in our company: Mr. Andre Evering Bdjdethfddepfx Agtsb Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is offered for collection only. Should you require delivery or shipping, this will incur additional costs, which can be requested from us depending on the delivery destination and volume.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Basic dimensions: Width: approx. 3,180 mm Height: approx. 900 mm Depth: approx. 600 mm Technical data for the workbench frame: Manufacturer: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 02x workbench uprights, used Material colour: green Upright height: 900 mm Upright depth: 600 mm Incl. cross and diagonal braces, foot plates The uprights are pre-assembled (bolted framework) 04x workbench beams, used Material colour: orange Beam profile: I: 120 x 50 mm Clear span: 3,000 mm 08x safety pins, used Specification: sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams against unintentional lifting Note: Bdjdpfjthi Huex Agtjb - The images are for illustrative purposes only. - Material colours may deviate. - The workbench frames are picked unassembled; - The uprights are pre-assembled; - Standard production time is approx. 3-5 working days. You can also purchase workbench frames in the following alternative depths: Workbench frame 3,180 x 700 mm / 2 levels / (€184.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 800 mm / 2 levels / (€186.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 900 mm / 2 levels / (€188.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,000 mm / 2 levels / (€190.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,050 mm / 2 levels / (€192.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,100 mm / 2 levels / (€194.00 incl. 19% VAT) Workbench frame 3,180 x 1,200 mm / 2 levels / (€198.00 incl. 19% VAT) Your contacts at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only available for collection. If transport or shipping is required, additional costs will apply, which can be quoted separately depending on delivery location and volume. Please contact us for further information.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for pallet racking beam: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Included in the scope of delivery: 01x Pallet racking beam, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Box section profile: 100 x 50 mm Beam type: BX 100|50|15 Connector: 5 hooks Bedjwt Rx Depfx Agtjdb Clear span: 1,450 mm 02x Locking pins, used Design: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the cross beams Your contacts at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only offered for collection. Transportation and shipping of this item are subject to additional costs, which can be quoted separately depending on the delivery location and scope.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for the pallet racking beam: Bodpfewffygsx Agtjdb Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x Pallet racking beam, used Material color: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 120 x 50 mm Beam type: BX 120|50|13 Connector: 5 HK Clear span: 2,700 mm Max. load per beam pair: 3,150 kg, with evenly distributed load. (Observe bay load) 02x Locking pin, used Design: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the cross beams Your contact persons in our company: Mr: Andre Evering Mr: Mario Klöver Mr: Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only offered for self-collection. Any transportation or shipment of this item is associated with additional costs, which can be quoted separately depending on the delivery location and scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Tehnični podatki o prečki za paletne regale: Regalni sistem: Dexion Tip: P 90 Dobava vsebuje: 01x prečka za paletni regal, rabljena Barva materiala: sendzimir pocinkano Škatlasti profil: 80 x 50 mm Tip prečke: BX 80|50|13 Kaveljc: 5 HK Čista razdalja: 1.800 mm 02x varnostni zatič, rabljen Izvedba: sendzimir pocinkano Za zavarovanje vzdolžnih nosilcev Vaši kontakti v našem podjetju: Bdedpfsw Utm Sjx Agtob Gospod: Andre Evering Gospod: Mario Klöver Gospod: Falk Deutsch Splošne informacije o artiklu: Ta artikel je na voljo samo za osebni prevzem. Dodatne zahteve glede transporta ali pošiljanja tega artikla so povezane z dodatnimi stroški, ki jih je možno pridobiti individualno glede na kraj dostave oziroma obseg dobave.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for pallet racking beam: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: Bjdpowufdwofx Agtodb 01x Pallet racking beam, used Material colour: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 100 x 50 mm Beam type: BX 100|50|15 Connector: 5 HK Clear width: 1,140 mm 02x Locking pin, used Version: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams Your contacts in our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is offered for collection only. Any transport or shipping of this item beyond that is associated with additional costs, which can be requested from us separately depending on the place of delivery and the scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for pallet rack beam: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x Pallet rack beam, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 100 x 50 mm Beam type: SLB 100|15 Bracket: 4 hooks Design: Head beam Clear span: 2,695 mm 02x Locking pins, used Finish: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams Note: The beam was cut flush at the bracket to become a head beam. No information can be given regarding the compartment load capacity. Currently in stock: approx. 148 pcs. Your contacts at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Bjdjtiv H Hspfx Agtedb Mr. Falk Deutsch General information regarding the article: This item is only offered for collection. Any additional transport or shipping of this item is subject to extra charges, which can be provided individually depending on delivery location and scope.

Stanje: novo, Included in delivery: 01x Platform beam, new Manufacturer: SSI Schäfer Bdsdemv Dyzjpfx Agtob Design: Corner connection / 90° Suitable for CS Sigma profiles With a profile height of 300 mm Type of fastening: Internal bolting Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Technical data for the platform beam: Dimensions: approx. 140 x 275 x 105 mm (D x W x H) Hole spacing (outer): approx. 250 mm Hole spacing (inner): approx. 130 mm Hole diameter: approx. 13 mm Material thickness: 3.00 mm

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for pallet rack beam: Rack system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x pallet rack beam, used Material color: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 89 x 50 mm Bodpfxjwucmps Agtsdb Beam type: SLO 089 | 2 Connector: 5 HK Clear span: 1,445 mm 02x locking pins, used Design: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams Your points of contact at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Mario Klöver Mr. Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is only offered for collection. Any additional transport or shipping of this item will incur extra costs, which can be requested from us separately depending on the delivery location and scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical Data for the Pallet Rack Beam: Bdedswuf E Iepfx Agteb Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x Pallet rack beam, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 89 x 50 mm Beam type: SLO 089|2 Connector: 5 hooks Clear span: 1,140 mm 02x Safety pin, used Version: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams Your contacts at our company: Mr.: Andre Evering Mr.: Mario Klöver Mr.: Falk Deutsch General information about the item: This item is available for collection only. If transport or shipping of this item is required, this will incur additional costs, which can be provided upon request depending on the delivery location and scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Tehnične podatke o prečki za paletni regal: Regalni sistem: Dexion (Hovik) Tip: P 90 Bdsdpfxjw R Shaj Agteb V obsegu dobave je: 01x Prečka za paletni regal, rabljena Barva materiala: bela I-profil: 100 x 50 mm Agrafa: 5 HK Svetla širina: 950 mm 02x Varnostni zatič, rabljen Izvedba: sendzimir pocinkan Za varovanje prečnih nosilcev Vaši kontaktni partnerji pri nas: Gospod: Andre Evering Gospod: Mario Klöver Gospod: Falk Deutsch Splošne informacije o izdelku: Ta izdelek je na voljo samo za osebni prevzem. Če želite prevoz ali pošiljanje tega izdelka, to povzroča dodatne stroške, ki jih lahko pri nas preverite glede na kraj dostave oziroma obseg dobave.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Technical data for the pallet rack beam: Racking system: Dexion Type: P 90 Scope of delivery includes: 01x pallet rack beam, used Material finish: Sendzimir galvanized Box profile: 102 x 50 mm Bdedpfx Aowub Edjgtob Beam type: SLO 102|2 Connector: 5 HK Clear width: 1,450 mm 02x locking pin, used Version: Sendzimir galvanized For securing the longitudinal beams Your contacts in our company: Mr: Andre Evering Mr: Mario Klöver Mr: Falk Deutsch General information about the article: This item is only offered for collection. If transport or shipping is required, this will involve additional costs, which can be requested separately depending on the place of delivery or scope of delivery.

Stanje: dober (rabljeno), Tehnični podatki za prečko paletnega regala: Regalni sistem: Dexion (Hovik) Tip: P 90 V obsegu dobave je: 01x prečka paletnega regala, rabljena Barva materiala: bela Profil škatle: 120 x 50 mm Zaponka: 5 HK Svetla širina: 2.700 mm 02x varnostni zatič, rabljen Izvedba: sendzimir pocinkano Za zavarovanje vzdolžnih nosilcev Vaši kontaktni podatki pri nas: G.: Andre Evering G.: Mario Klöver G.: Falk Deutsch Splošne informacije o artiklu: Ta artikel je na voljo le za osebni prevzem. Dostava oziroma pošiljanje tega artikla je povezano z dodatnimi stroški, ki jih je mogoče posebej povprašati glede na kraj dostave oziroma obseg dobave. Bdedpfxow R A Iwj Agtjb

Stanje: zelo dobro (rabljeno), Your contacts at our company: Mr. Andre Evering Mr. Marcel Brahms Mr. Simon Blank We are offering here a used pallet rack beam from the manufacturer Nedcon for sale. Bdedped A Sm Tefx Agtsb Technical data of the pallet rack beam: Racking system: Nedcon Type: NS Currently available: approx. 5,000 pieces Scope of delivery includes: 01x Pallet rack beam, used Material color: RAL 2008 Light Red Orange Box profile: 90 x 40 mm Hook type: 4 hooks Clear span: 1,900 mm Max. load per pair of beams: 2,000 kg with evenly distributed load 02x Locking pins, used Version: fully galvanized For securing the beams against unintentional lifting Overview of our services: (Prices on request) Assembly and installation Please note our general assembly terms and conditions Racking inspection Inspection according to DIN EN 15635, carried out according to BGR 234 requirements Visual inspection for all racking systems Delivery with our own fleet (unloading not included)

Stanje: pripravljen za uporabo (rabljen), Siemens A5E00302096 panelni sistem NEMA4 Touch 12" TFT SN: LBU9003862 , serijska številka po fotografiji, rabljeno, manjše sledi uporabe, 100% delujoče, obseg dobave po fotografijah Bodpfx Agexahkzjtodb

Stanje: novo, Tip: Z4A Bsdpjhmbktsfx Agtjdb Število vrtalnih vreten: Na voljo so različne izvedbe glave – 4x3 Razdalja med prvim in zadnjim vretenom: 2300 mm Nastavljiva hitrost vrtanja Višina delovne mize: 840 mm Dimenzije mize: 600x2350 mm Število vpenjal: 8 Moč motorja: 6 kW (4x1,5) 400 V Št. vrtljajev motorja: 2840 vrt./min Delovni tlak zraka: 6-8 bar Teža: 425 kg Transportne dimenzije: 2450x960x1550 mm

Stanje: rabljeno, Značilnosti: Sestavljen iz dveh motoriziranih ukrivljenih transporterjev pod kotom 90°. Polmer ukrivljenosti: 3 m po osi. Skupna dolžina v raztegnjenem stanju: 4,80 m. Skupna širina strukture transporterja: 750 mm. Lakirani bukovi letvi: 620 x 54 x 42 mm. Nastavljiva višina od tal: 500–650 mm. Bodpfox Sx Iqjx Agtjdb Pogonski sistem z verigami in zobniki. Stransko vodenje in spodnji povratek po drsniku iz sintetičnega materiala. Integrirani pogonski reduktorski motor. Stikalo v krmilni omarici z zaščitnim odklopnikom. Nujna zaustavitev in glavno stikalo. Električna omara z elektronskim regulatorjem hitrosti za oba ukrivljena gumijasta traka.

Stanje: generalkompletno obnovljen (rabljeno), Leto izdelave: 2001, Stroj za lupljenje debel BG 90 6W-GR Bdedpfx Aey Iabdogtjb Letnik izdelave: 2001 Leta 2022 generalno prenovljen, nato ni bil več postavljen Minimalni premer: 14 cm Maksimalni premer: 90 cm S transportnimi napravami za dovod in odvod Takoj na voljo – generalno prenovljen Lokacija: Avstrija, v bližini Linza

Stanje: zelo dobro (rabljeno), Leto izdelave: 1994, Stroj za izdelavo žebljev Bjdpfx Aeuhxqmegtodb Proizvajalec: WAFIOS Model: N90 Leto izdelave: 1994 Območje premera: 2,5-3,8 mm Dolžina žebljev: 50-90 mm Kapaciteta – kosi/min: 800 Stroj vključuje avtomatski rezalnik žice in čistilec žice!!

Stanje: novo, Working length: 2750 mm Working height: 2500 mm Lifting range of worktable: 300–1000 mm RUCHSER Glazing and Sealing Table RU-SW3-90° Vertical worktable with lifting device and turning mechanism. Particularly suitable for glazing and double-sided sealing of wooden windows. Equipment: - Support section covered with felt - Infinitely adjustable pneumatic lift, stroke from 300 mm to 1000 mm, relative to roller conveyor height - Turning device for double-sided sealing, with roller conveyor (roller length: 150 mm) - 2 pneumatic clamps for securing the window on the turning device - Special turning device allowing windows, set up on the roller conveyor, to be pushed through even while the turning device is engaged (closed) Alternative/optional features available upon request! Item 1.0: Art. No.: 100000 RU-SW3-90° Vertical Worktable for wooden windows with turning device for glazing and double-sided sealing Bdsdsxmk D Rjpfx Agteb Angle length: 1970 mm; Opening angle: 90°; Maximum working width: 2750 mm; Total length: 3050 mm; Total width: 780 mm; Reference height: 1600 mm; Support surface with felt; left OR right: one roller as edge protection for elements up to 2500 mm high. Pneumatic lifting device from 300 – 1000 mm. Footprint as roller conveyor with steel rollers, roller length and spacing: 200 mm. Total price in this configuration: on request! Options at extra cost: Item 1.1: Art. No.: 5202 EUR 773.00 each Support section with rubber rollers, Ø 48 mm, roller spacing 50 mm, for RU-SW3-90° and RU-SWS3 Item 1.2: Art. No.: 7081 EUR 440.00 each Steel angle covered with felt mounted above the roller bars for RU-SW3-90° Prevents “chattering” of the windows during pushing. The additional bars are mounted above all roller bars of the RU-S2. Item 1.3: Art. No.: 5056 EUR 147.00 each RU-AK-6 Accessory box 1000x120 mm, 6 compartments, for hanging in the roller conveyor Total price in this configuration: on request! Ex works plus packaging and shipping, plus VAT. PDF brochure attached. (Technical specifications according to manufacturer – without guarantee!)